Washington Week with The Atlantic full episode, 6/7/24

Jeffrey: Everyry presidede confronts S dilemmama in the middle eastt best ararculated by Al pacino in " "Dfather III."

Presididt Biden has had the S se bad luck K soo many of his predecessors.

Tonighgh a close look at the never-ending crisis with Tom friedmanan next.

>> This is "Washington wewe with theetlantic."

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Ffrey: Good evening and welcome to a specici edition of "Washington week."

President Biden N abroad commemorating the anniversararof d-day.

T democracy is on the back foot arorod the world, and president Biden facecedifficult tile inchehe from Russia, China - - difficultlt challenges from Russia, China, a a Iran I I ll talk abobo the state of play inn Israel and I in with the great Tom Friedman.

Tom haha collected three pulitzer prize is S R his work, and he joins me tonight for a one-on-one conversatatn.

- - Thrhr pulitzer prizeze for his work, and he joins meme tonight for a one-on-oneneonversation.

Like to have you herer byhe way,t is the last time I will be quotinin "Godfather I" on this show.

Let's talklkbout Joe Biden and his management.

I wentohow a coupleeconds of B Ben talking at the d-d-y ceremonini.

Pres.. Bidenen D docracy begins whwh one person decides there is mething more importata than thememlves.

That is W wn every soldier,, every marininwho stormed these beaches decided..

They stoto against aggression.

Does anyone doubt T tt they woulul want a Arica T to stand up against putin''s aggression here in Europe today?

Jeffrere H H do you grade Joe Biden so far O his management of the world?

Thomas: I think Joe Biden has done a good job at an extxtmely difficict time.

The calendar sayayit is 20202 bubuit is reaeay 1989.

Juju a 1980 nine was when were defined the E st-cold war worlrl we are now tryininto define T tost-post-cold W W worlrl and whaha will be our relations with China and the other great powers?

To put thehe hamas, Ukraine moror into this,s,he war in gazaz began on O oober 7, butut alwlws ask myselflfwhat was G gng on ininhe world on October 6 6 E day before?

October 6,kraine was actualal trying to jojo the west and Israel was tryryg to join E east through normamazing with S sdi Arabia.

Had ukraiai been ablee to join the west in the form O O nato, the European unionon etc., that would have been the biggege expansion N nce east Germany jojoed west Germany.

And U uaine is the biggest breadbasket in Europe, but of the biggest tech sectoto in europepe Putin undererood thehehreat, becacae he wouldld have been isolated, especially if a successfsf slavic Ukraine democracy was in T T E eu in contrast to hihislavic klepepcracy.

Hehe M med to S stop it.

Atathe main type -- at the same time, Israel was negotiatinin with saudidi Arabia on normalization tetes that would have incncdedn Israeli rtnership with the palaltinian authority.

Had Israel been abab to normalize with sasai Arabia, it would be T T biggest expansion of annclusive Middle East since camp David.

I ran understoooothat so well that theheupreme leader told uss so.

- - Irann understoooo that so well thth the supreme leader toto us so.

It was a big momomt defining at will be the post cold war world and who will be the sort of partners for a world of decency, and who are going to keep the world fractured, divided, and aroununless decent forces.

Jeffffy: Let me E K you about jojobiden's relatatnship with E prime minisisr of Israel, whichs one of hisisost intense and proroematic relationsnsith an allll at least, over theheast severara months.

U have been N citing about Netanyahu for years.. How doou judge hisanagement the challengegeosed by Iran and I I proxy forces includinin hamas?

Thomas: Iouldive him very low marks, basically, because Rael today, jeffffis in exisisntial danger.

It is not from hamas.. An iraraan entity has Israel surrounded O auth road fronts, from the proxy of the who tease Yemen from the southth - --he huthis from ththsouth and the east with the she E shows -- with the Shieh militiaia and Iran self.

Iran hashrunk Israel.

They have shrunk Israel.

Whwh is really S sry, I say I I from an isiseli point of view, that I Dono't see thaha anynye has the E swer for it, Jeff.

Cause what is the answer I I ote about this a whilele back I callll it the Biden doctrine.e.

Because Biden did have an answer..

He said look, isrsrl, you have faced three challengege one I how to get out of gaza and leave behind a a better situatioiosecurity wise.

You U ve cononict with the Palestinians ongoing I ithe west nk, and you have aegional cocolict with Iran.

Thee ansnsr of all three questions ISS somomkind of partnership wiwi legitimate Palestinian authority.y.

That gives you a partner to O T out of gaza.

It gives you a partner F F futureegotiations, and it ISIS the cement for R regional alliance againin Iran.

Asaseal cannot expect the Jordan, a aa,ae to defefd Israel from M E next missile E rocket a aack.

If Israel has the west bank, ose governments will L T be ableleo do that.

Biden has been tryryg to say to Netanyahu thehe palesesnian partnenehip is the keystone off everything.. My criticism of Biden isise tends totoalk about Bibi as my old friend, love you,, pal, but don't agree witityou.

No.

Netataahu, thisiss not your andfather's N nanyahu.

This guy ISS focuseded on his politicacasurvival, which is key to S saying out of jail for him, and I believe he has put that ahead of the E terests not only of the uninid states, but actually of israra itself.

Jeffrey: But what would you expect Biden to dodo when is the senenr partner in the relationsnsp and the other is the small junior partrtr.

You give Biden good grades overall, but he has been unable to move Netanyahu in what you uld call a positive D dection.

Thomas: Biden inherited S sh a bad hand.

U cannot abandon Israel in the middle of F war with hamas.

It is a proxoxwar with Iran.

That is what the Iranians want them to do.

I am not sure what he E uld do.

I take your R INT.

But I think he could havav been firmer at differert points along the way.

On one pararcular point, which is Bibi, we are N N going anototr day with you, ananher minutete anotherourf two thinin do not happen.

If I see another settltlent in the E St bank, another male, another break, , other bag of ment,nd if you not come up with a paleleinian partnerer a legitimate palestiniananartner, an't help you a a you can't help yourself.

I think sayininthatver and over, the Israeli I stem needs at.

That I where iould give Biden lower marks.

The Israeli prpre minister pends on the united S STEs and the American presidenen saidhe prime mimister goes to H H cacanet and says I iould like to do all these crazyzyhingsou right wiwi settlers want me to do, but T T Israeli president broke my hearar I am withhou.

But T T Americans, we have nono been that C car, and we H he not beenenhat clear publicly.

I I arned long time ago as S journalists what you U an annual who tells you in English -- W wt Bibi netanyahuhuells you in English in privava is relevant.

All that matterer is what he says in H hrew I public to his own people.

If Bibi nets in the whohos invitingngou as a J jrnalist for an interview, herer's aip -- if Bibi Netanyahu I iinviting youou as eurur foror an intntview, here is a tip, that is not T cocoliment.

We don't exchangegeanukkah RDS.

The point isise needo speak more to the Israeli people in public ourselves andndess to him, and thaha H H been my -- Jeffrey: Rigig.

I want to come back to somomhing shockiki that you said.

U used the term existeteial dadaer to talk a AUT where isisel is.

Obviououy therere is a massisi preoccupatatn of American foreign policy ananamerica gegerally.

Youuave been doing this fofo45 eyes, covering T tt particular part of F E middle easas have you ever seen N Rael in this much trouble?

Thomas: I H he not.

Jeffffy: 1 12, the Lebanon warar Thomas: It was S T in existeteial danger.

It couldldave lost a global pr title, B B it was not facing a regigial supuppower like Iran.

Thatats extremely smart, that has gotot isrsrl -- in 1980 two, remember, none O othe Arab cocotries had precision weweons.

Whwhis the fight with Hezbollah Lebanon so scaryryand why do they each go right to the brink and just pull back?

Because he has 100,000 rockets but maybe 20,0,0 are precisionon weapons.

Hamas has to fire 50 rockets too maybe hit onon target.

Precisionn rocket, you fire one, you hit the Israeli O O refinery.

You had another,, you hit the airbase, the defenses ministry, the airport ininel aviv.

The nexexisraeli-hezbollah war is one neithereran afford.

They will destroy eaea othth.

Jeffrey: Let me ask you this.

Some T tng fascinating you wroro the other R Y about Saudi Arabia , a key P Pyer, the most important Arab Sunni country and you a a talking about the prime -- talking abobo the crown prinin, Mohammed bin salalon, who has a contrororsial reputation inurountry.

Yoyosaid heasutis country'worst Israeli extremists I ijail while njamin Netanyahu has pututis worst religious extremiststin his cabinet.

We all know that part of the Middle East isudden and amatic change, but thahais crazy.

Yoyoure saying the L older of saudud Arabia is M me Progressive on theheubject of fundamentalili than the L older of a democracy, Israel.

Thomas: That I because one I ia democracy a a one is.

Fofo Bibi to S sy in power, he needed to bring in powow people whwhhave never been G gen that kind of power B bore, a a were are talking aboututewish premacists.

Wewere T tking but a cabinet of, American terms, marjojoe Taylor rain, Steve Bannon as secretary of state, Flynn ass secretary off defense, , ople you nener imagined D Jeffrey: Yououre referring to next February.

Thomas: Exactly, we mamabe there.

I would sayy Israel is in widerer trends to western civivization whwh off-broadway is to Broadway.

A lototf stutu starts thehe in mininiure and comes to broaoaay.

Ump and Netanyahu are brothers from different M mhers.

Netataahu is smarter, but thehe represent T E same political phenomena in E eh country.

So S sdi Arabia basically, W wn you talkk too the crown prince, hee will tell you, we have basicallll been sleepepg for 20 years.

Hiss focus is economic development, shakekehe place up, and we are going to get away from this whole islalast trend.

People have too learnrneal subjecec, have real jobs.

In israel'case, bibii brougug these people in becacae it was the only way he could S svive politically.

But as I tell my jewish frienen, brothers and sisters, you D D not go to O wish summer R mp with thehe people.

They were not in the catatills.

You U ve never met people Lili this.

They just wawaed out of the second templpl they are extrememend they are extremely smart.

Ffrey: And they are thehe equivalele in some way some people who populate the natioiol guard cocos in Iran, I their messssnic vision.

Ththas: When I lived in beirir in the late 1970's and 1980'0's, had a landlord in ourur apararent, my wife and I.

Around 4:00 every dayay, he would shout down, "Thomom, come have coffee."

I would sayay I'veve got to work, I cac't, I've got T write somemeing.

These guys, the Hezbollah guys, thee Iranian revolution N rs, these settlers, thth don't come that quickly.

They W wl take you down.

Home and quietly E eoy a turkisiscoffee on their own..

These are serious pepele.

Jeffrey:et me askou this, because it is a question ababt the approachchf Donald Trump to the middle E et versus Joe Biden to the middleeast.

You could argue aftft the solomonic hitithat trump ordered at that actually scared Iran to acquiescence E R a while.

Uestion ishis, who are the Iranians more afraidid of, Donald Trump or Joe bidid?

Thomas: I am N N sure they are afraid ofither, but let's S re member D dald trump -- let's remember Donald Trump did, in my vivi, in partnership with Netanyahu, thehetupidest thing that has been done in post-c-cd war polili.

They tore U Uthe I indian N near deal a a got nothing in returnrn that deal that T esident Obama negotiated had I ran a euro wave - - had Iran a yeye from a bomb - - a year away froro a bomb, babacally.

Irirs N N days away.

We gave up real lelerage on thth.

Thatas a disaster.

Jeffrey: S that was not toughness, just a a mb move.

Thomas: And Bibi T tked him into tearing it up, I thinknk bececse he saiddf theheranians and rich Moore, trump will bomomthem.

He did not do that.

Whenen he bomomd the sauau oil cility, trump did not doo anything.

He said Weill sell you more patriots.

Jeffrey: In other words, trump is unpredictable but N N clever.

Ththas: He is predidiable in is senses and itt is something the Israeli securiri people have sread all along aboututhe united S STEs.

I could use myup, isrsrl is here, , an isere, America is over here.

Never, eveve ever,r,ver, ever ING to bomb Iran for Israel.

Jejerey: A a that remains the case -- thomas:t remains the case today.

Jeffrey: Doess it remain a bipartisan case todayay Thomas: I believe so.

Jeffrey: Even ifif Tom cotton ISIS secretary ofofefense in the N nt trump adadnistration?

Thomas: That is another question.

But the Israelis thought if they just came over and spoke L older and explalaed the problem louder, we W wld understand it better.

Jeffrey: Speaking of W wch -- daylylht Thomas: --- Jeffrey: Speakininof which, the prime minister hasaseen invited to address confereree by Mike E hnson, to the chagrin of Israeli liberals witit democraticicpproval.

Netanyahah is coming to america soon.

What do you expect T happen out of that trip?

Apart from bernrn Sanders bobootting the speech?

Thomas: Call the useless thinin I can theheup to be done R rht now, I O Oen say I love E raeli paleleinians -- Israelis, Palestinians, but gododave them frfr their American fririds who basisilly dive into thihi conflict and sometimes explolo it for thehe own interest.

This is the case of R rublicans wawaing to bring netanyahuhu over here, forcrc democratiti progressiviv to come out against hihi embarrass the demococtic party,y,nd breast Biden -- ememrrass Biden, and win votes.

I find it shameful, of all ththgs Biden has done ferernting Hoos since the war started, hehe knows this I something that is not help --of F E things Biden has doneor Netanyahu sincehe war stataed, he knows thihiis somethininthat is not of help.

Jeffrey:oese want trump to win?

Omas: I think he isisocusedn one thing,is ownersonal -- and trump does not T ke him becauseecknowledged that Joe den won the election.n.

How crazy isishat?

Jeffrey: It is intererting, you lk about saves from the ends of the Palestinians.. On the palestinini side, if Y Y have B bn following W wt has been going onnn T T camp, this is one of thee leftmost wings O O the democrcric party, you are a O state solution guy,y,hey are nono the hard left I for the ererication of Israel.

Talk about that anan how it fefes into thihigeneral tumult in the American domemeic politicaca scene.

Ththas: I am G gd young P pple and olol people are concerned about this war and T T incredible numumr of civilians who have been killele on both sides, but partitilarly because there are M me P pestinians in gaza, women and childrdr.

Bu if you are going to W wgh into thihi conflict, too me youou have to O morally serious.

You have T acknowledge howowhis starard, that is ststted with a cious attack byby hamas onn Israel out of F E blue,e, men,, women,n,ids killed in front of ththr parents, parenen in frontnt of theiririds, women raped.

If yououretend that just Israel got upupne day I didid this, that is not moralal serious.

The sesend, in myy view, if you want to be foror solution, it is even moreeun to chant "Two states for T T people" thann "From the R rer to the sea."

The only mororly S sious solutiti is two states for two indigenous peoplpl a lot of people E ve been writingg a two state solution is impossible, a pipepeeam, etc., to whichch my reaction is thank you very M mh.

I thoughghit was a slamdunk.

Thank you very much.

It's got about a 5% chance of success, and I am goininto devote 100% of M M energy that 5%,ecause the only alternative is a F fever or.

- - Forever war.

If you want to be seriousus about this, you havav to recognize how many gazans detesesd hamas's rule.

They were not popular.

There were two popular uprisings against them ininhe last few years.

Sit and think they're some boy scout troop in charge- I am glad people are involved and think about civilian casuauaies.

Ianted this war yesterdrd.

I was Nott for it to O gin with, T's be clele, but you'u've got to be early seriououabout it.

- - Mororly serious about it.

Jeffrey: And T T minute we have left, I'm going to ask you T T solve thee Israeli-Palestinian crisis.

T an impossible question, but aear impossible question,n, is there anything in that pararof the worlrlthat gives you any cause for R timism?

Ththas: Yes, I covered innhe year befefe the hamas warar and incrediblele uprisingnsraeli civivi society, the democracac movement a adst Netanyahu' effort to O ash the supreme court.

Metoung israeaes I had never met before.

I think therere is aew generatiti of leadership P Ady to takak over, to move I io politicscs they are incrediblyy pressive.

Ey are real democrats.s.

They need toto get this war ovov.

Think T T samean be true O O the paleststian side.

I B bieve they a a there.

One O the T tngs that really disappointed me wawathat we let the E leader appoint a aew gogornment not of that new generation, becacae they are ere, and I think T tt is what are going to have to O T to.

That is my one hope.

Ffrey: I wish we could go on for another C cple of hours, butut we U uortunately need to leave it T TRE for N N. I want to thank T T for being here and sharing H H analysis.

Thanks to our viewewe for joinininus as well.

For moror on what amerera's alales think about a second trump presidenen, check out the new pipie on theatlantic.com on nato.

Od night from washingtgt.

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